Video...50 knot + ride down Speed spot
Sun, 21 Oct 12 17:44
Following on from yesterdays run, here's the video as promised. Light winds today and for the next few days. Heaps of little jobs getting ticked off. We have the whole team working on the 'brick wall' of drag we seem to keep coming up against. We'll get there... and when we do... we'll probably keep going!
Cheers, Paul
Creating a down force
Submitted by sclynch on Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:59.If I understand the concept correctly, as the boat goes faster the back-end rises. This is prevented from rising too high by a down force created by the foil changing its angle of attack as it rises (rotates) with the hull. This down force will not be directly down but at some angle rearward. Can you please explain why it is not the creation of this force that is creating the "glass ceiling" you talk about.
Off the wall idea...
Submitted by rrobinson0 on Mon, 10/29/2012 - 14:28.A few years ago the BBC showed a documentary about a group of aerospace engineers attempting to recreate Da Vinci's flying machine. Using their knowledge they realised that a long narrow wing would be more efficient than the "fat" wings in the original design.
They wanted some authenticity about the design though for the sake of appearances, and so attached fabric strips about 30cm wide off the trailing edge of the wing to create the outline. When testing this design they found that they had, accidentally, made the wing even more efficient as the flexible trailing fabric held the turbulent flows from the upper and lower faces of the wing apart and reduced drag. If my memory serves I think they increased the range as a glider by about 15%.
Could some form of flexible trailing edge be attached to the foil? Obviously with the wedge you have significant vorteces on the trailing edge that help create the effect you desire, but the quantity of spray shown in the videos you have posted indicates huge energies when these vorteces collapse. The flexible trailing edge could reduce this while creating a pathway for air along the trailing edge.
Just a thought in a teacup! Probably rubbish....
Good luck anyway, it's been fun following your progress so far, can't wait for 60 to appear!
REPLY... RE: Off the wall
Submitted by Paul on Mon, 10/29/2012 - 15:39.Those stories of discovery are great. I don't think we could apply them to our own foils due to the thick, base ventilated nature of them. In a way the ventilated base cavity might serve to do the same thing.
We are obviously losing energy into the spray as shown in the video. The spray is also going on to hit the rear float. We are currently fabricating a fence to reduce these losses. Bit by bit we will squeeze every knot we can out of her.
I can't wait for 60 to appear either. I now have boat-speed displayed in the cockpit and audio recorded from the boat. We will try and take you along for the ride.
Cheers, Paul.
REPLY... RE: Creating a down force
Submitted by Paul on Thu, 10/25/2012 - 10:08.Hi Sclynch,
Your understanding isn't quite right. Think of the foil in three sections, the FIRST foil is the upper long section which connects to the boat. The TRANSITION is the curved bit which curves through 90 degrees and the SECOND foil is the lower part whick extends to the tip.
The first foil is at 30 degrees to Horizontal, the second foil isat 30 degrees to vertical so that it is parallel with the wing on the opposite side of the boat. The transition foil curves through 90 degrees to join the two.
HERE YOU CAN SEE THE NEW FOIL OVERLAID ON THE OLD FOIL TO SHOW THE DIFFERENT SIZES. YOU CAN ALSO SEE THE LOW SPEED WATERLINE AND THE HIGH SPEED WATERLINES IN DARKER GREY CLOSER TO THE TRANSITION.
Right, so how the boat generates its ride height is typical of a true surface piercing foil (like Hydroptere)... but slightly different in our case. It should be noted that the foil is fixed rigidly to the boat and has no moving parts. As we start moving the foil is deeply submerged as illustrated by the low speed/static waterline above. A large part of the first foil is in the water.This is producing predominently upwards lift... and a small amount of lateral resistence. The second foil is basically opposing the wing forces although the lift from the first foil will result in net 'up-thrust'. VSR2 will rise out of the water and keep rising until the vertical lift generated by the wing and what remains of the first foil equals the down-force generated by the second foil and the static weight of VSR2 at the back. Basically we only need enough of the first foil in the water to lift the static weight of the boat. This is not much. A human can bare foot waterski at 35 mph. Anything more than this amount is just pure drag.
So, part of the wings thrust is lost in generating lift and part of the foils drag is generated in opposing it. This is an issue with the Bernard Smith concepts. In order to get both the wing and foil upright and have no vertical losses, you would need an infinitely wide boat. The dimensions of VSR2 are determined by the angles where you get diminishing returns i.e. 30 degree inclinations. This may all explain why we may never be quite as efficient as say Yellow Pages or Mac. Innovations... although we aren't too far off and we should have a lot more stability and power. I'm a fan of those two boats by the way. Brilliant boats well executed.
So, there will always be some rearward component generated by the drag associated with pulling the boat down... but it is understood and accounted for. What may not be quite so well understood is the loss of lift generated by the first foil so close to the surface... given that the first foil enters the water at such a shallow angle. We need to play with this. Also there are plenty of very subtle little twists and changes in foil profile in this area which also need to be dialled in. Remember also that the whole angle of the foil changes as the back does start to lift as the whole boat is pivoting 'pitch-wise' around the forward float. A change in pitch will have greatest effect on the first foil than the second... as it is more horizontal. We will continue to adjust settings to see what we can do to get VSR2 riding as designed in the most efficient manner.
Cheers, Paul.
Ray Vellinga
Submitted by Russell Moore on Thu, 10/25/2012 - 01:42.Paul and co, no doubt you have read this book, but I came across a reference to it on a sailing foils site: Ray Vellinga. Hydrofoils, Design Build Fly. Haven't read it myself..
I suppose you guys will be writing a much better book in the future, what with all the info you now have!
Swing-wing equivalent
Submitted by simsimian on Tue, 10/23/2012 - 21:32.Hi Paul and team
What a boat! She is a brilliantly reliable performer, and thank you for involving us all as you do everything possible to persuade her to fulfil her potential.
A couple of thoughts from my armchair of blissful ignorance: would a swing-wing equivalent be possible in the foil design? By which I mean either a foil whose shape you can change whilst underway, or which has two distinct shapes along its length for the two phases - startup and full-speed. The other thing is an observation on the video, which is that there seems to be quite a bit of spray from the bow float. Is that contributing much drag?
By the way, lovely to see Bristol combining its talents to contribute - we are home to the national composites centre and also a centre of excellence for the aeroplane industry. And to that we add in our pirate past (and its legacy of boatyards in the town) to become a useful player in this drama.
By leaps and bounds or knot by knot, you will get there
Simon
REPLY... RE: Swing-wing
Submitted by Paul on Wed, 10/24/2012 - 18:16.Hi Simon,
In some respects we do already have a swing-wing in that there is a rear low speed foil/skeg which helps us get started and up to around 15 knots before it kicks up. As it stands it seems that our high speed foils don't have many 'mid-range blues' so we don't need to change the shapes once they get going. We were only talking today about increasing the size of the low speed skeg as it is still often only marginal during some start ups.
We don't think the front float contributes too much to the overall drag. Once we find out what the big issue are... we will continue to clean up all the other areas one by one.
Yeah, it's good to have Bristol playing her part in this little bit of history. I like Bristol.
Cheers, Paul
video
Submitted by Mike Ewart on Tue, 10/23/2012 - 17:03.Hi Paul and the team, great video, you seem to have more coverage of the boat on the videos this year interesting to see the trail from the new fin lots of spray!!.
The leeward float was flying beautifully, was this just good control on your part or very well balanced?
REPLY... RE: video
Submitted by Paul on Wed, 10/24/2012 - 18:11.Hi Mike... it was superb control on my... actually, I can't lie, it is just a very well balanced boat. The horizontal lower wing extension does ride on a cushion of air in ground effect that is slightly self stabalising. Also if the wing flies to high it loses its drive. It still amazes me how well it does balance. It's lovely to watch. However, if I'm going to continue with the honesty bit, It is flying a bit too high a bit too early. The pod should only be flying with full flap at 50 knots. Here it flies below 50 knots with only half flap. This indicates that the wing itself is still too inclined. The good news is that raising the wing a bit will increase the effective drive vector of the wing and only result in more speed.
Cheers, Paul.
Just do it!
Submitted by multiphil on Tue, 10/23/2012 - 01:40.Good luck Rocket man, you are nearly there.
Following you on Sailing Anarchy and now have joined your blog.
Keep it hot.....good luck, Phil...Phuket
Awesome footage Lars, great
Submitted by Macca on Mon, 10/22/2012 - 12:01.Awesome footage Lars, great to see your old steering actions haven't changed. Brings back memories of the old cortina or even the grey nurse out the compy, the over/under steer looks to be similar!! Good luck mate, great timing too, footy seasons over, Lars blog begins...Gettuppamate. Macca
REPLY... RE: Awesome footage
Submitted by Paul on Wed, 10/24/2012 - 18:05.Yeah the cameras are getting smaller too Macca. The boat is similar to the grey nurse in some respects i.e. mostly sideways... but hopefully this one doesn't go over the top as often... and there's less dodgy stuff behind the seats!
I'm gettin mate... I'm gettin.
Cheers, Lars
Foil, Videos
Submitted by Tim on Mon, 10/22/2012 - 01:43.So Paul, I sense some head scratching going on. I don't dare question the brain-trust's engineering and calculations back home, but I ask the following question because I'm genuinely interested in the answer.
How do you know that you've got a 60 knot boat? Have the engineers determined that the wing generates enough power to move the boat at 60 knots before ahving to consider parasitic drag on account of the foil? In other words, how much horsepower would be required to send the VSR2 down the course at 60 knots (with and without foils) and is this power generated by the wing?
Moreso, do you think that you are working with the right foil this time? You earlier mentioned that your data showed high pressures along the foil surface, indicating little/low drag. Is this still your understanding?
THe last video of the `51 knot average run was great. The videographer you have on sight is turning out some great materials!
Great process to watch from afar. All the best!
Tim (Vermont - with winds of 87, gusting to 110...on Mount Washington!)
REPLY... RE: Foil videos
Submitted by Paul on Wed, 10/24/2012 - 18:02.We have built a pretty serious VPP (Velocity Prediction Program) over the years for this boat. We did a nice big feasibility study at the start of this boat before we committed to the design. No point wasting time on a turkey. I am confident from a project managers point of view that we have had the right people with the right skills involved to monitor the VPP and its development. We are generally pessimistic about our inputs and try and include every aspect of what might ultimately contribute to overall performance. This includes things like wave height, spray drag, added weight etc. I don't have to weight long when I enquire about the effect of changing one parameter. Our VPP is pretty in depth.
VSR2 was basically designed to be the platform most likely to be able to drag the worst performing foil down the course at high speed in a variety of winds. She is a tough, powerful, stable and very efficient craft. The design speed is 65 knots. Everything about this boat is designed for life at 65 knots including the wing areas and fuselage orientation. Throughout the design one of our biggest worries was the ability to get to 65 knots... and this means sailing at 0-10 knots. You always have to compromise for these speeds at some stage.
So we assumed the worst case scenario for foil package i.e. an L/D of 3.5 and worked out how much power we needed to drag that down the course at 65 knots. This gave us an idea of what the wing had to do. throughout the build we generally tried to tweak the whole boat in our favour.
Right now we still think we have the right foil... until we have run out of options. As mentioned, it only has to perform poorly to achieve 60 knots... but something is happening that won't even let us get to the mid 50's. We need to keep working through a process of elimination in order to find out what it is. The back of the main foil seems to be working fine. we are about to have a look at the rudder. Maybe it really is just a bunch of smaller cumulative things. We have the tools to find out. I hope we have the wind and time.
Cheers, Paul.
Foils-Video
Submitted by Tim on Sat, 10/27/2012 - 01:58.I'll never tire of reading your analysis of the process. Thanks for the details.
But I'd wager long odds that you'd rather see great and steady winds to be out speed sailing rather than responding to blog questions!
Tim, Vermont
yesterdays run
Submitted by Mike Ewart on Sun, 10/21/2012 - 18:48.Hi Paul and team, impressive pics from the run lots of variation of the views you have been improving the presentation as well as the boat, was pleased to see the leeward float flying beautifully looked so stable out there, lots of keffufle kicked up by the foil though, is it too far immersed still?
REPLY... RE: Yesterdays run
Submitted by Paul on Wed, 10/24/2012 - 17:48.Hi Mike, yes it is still riding too low at the back and yes there is lots of spray. Some of it is to be expected... but it is pure energy loss so we will try and recover as much of it as possible. Fences are likely to feature. They could make the upper section of the foil more efficient and also help us raise the back of the boat.
Cheers, Paul